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From Anonymous comes the following “I am trying to reconcile the set of Jotnnar and the set of potential ancestors and I am coming up short on the parameters of conceivable overlap. I know both you and Sarenth admit a wider variety of ancestors than I manage thus far, and I feel like my conceptual limitations are the issue, so working on them.”
First of all, I want to say that this is the second of the two topics you’ve given me in recent months and I am still thinking on the first. It is not that the first topic is laid out incoherently, it’s that I’m still wrestling with it a bit and don’t feel I have anything coherent to say as of yet. I apologize, and I may simply ramble on 3POTS about it instead of doing a written Rant if you’re amenable to that. Regardless, that is a different topic entirely and this topic is more than interesting enough for a Rant all its own.
So! Reconciling the set of Jotnar with the set of potential ancestors. I love this topic not just because of the root of the topic itself, but also because I adore the phrasing using sets. I adore mathematical theory even though I’m woefully uninformed on the topic. For those interested, please see the Wikipedia article on Set Theory here (please use as a start and not the totality of the thing).
The root of the topic though, at least to my mind, is how can we consider Jotnar to be ancestors? Well, lets do a bit of defining of the sets we’re working with. These are, as with all definitions, merely jumping off points. Baggage handles that allow us to get a feel for the thing we are talking about rather than any kind of authoritative grouping (which cannot exist in any case).
Jotnar are a set of spiritual, divine, or semi-divine beings generally considered to be mythologically similar to the “gods” (being the Aesir and the Vanir) of Norse Mythology, though often opposed to them in terms of goals. There is also some indication that the Jotnar are a bit more associated with wildness, the wilderness, wild animals, etc. than the Aesir and Vanir tend to be. These sets intermarry and breed frequently throughout the recorded, extant mythos, and should broadly be considered to be differentiated socially rather than “biologically”, essentially belonging to different sociopolitical groups rather than belonging to differing “species”. There is possibly some association with various land spirits or land-owning spirits, though my understanding is that this is mostly a surviving folklore thing that is less well researched and documented. In basically all cases, Jotnar and their various cognates are considered to be “Others”, outsiders living beyond the realm of men until they’re married in or otherwise incorporated in various ways. Again for an introduction, please see the Wiki here.
Ancestors are a bit more dichotomous in definition. There is the obvious definition of those who contributed to us biologically who are now no longer alive. Those with whom we share genetic lineage, who are no longer alive. Dead family members. Many people stop here with defining this particular set. This is however, a definition that is ludicrous on its face. It simply leaves out too much of the human experience to be sensical. Family simply includes too much more than genetic inheritance for ancestors to be defined this way. Firstly this comes from genetic necessity. In order to prevent inbreeding and the development of genetic diseases, humans breed with unrelated humans. People with whom they do not share much, if any, genetic ancestry. This ties lines of genetic inheritance together in very real ways. In short, it creates relationship even between people who share no genetic relationship at all. There is even indication that the relationship between uncle and nephew in Germanic societies was as or more important than that of father and son. Another example is adoption, a phenomenon found the world over, a bond outside of genetic inheritance that still creates family bonds. Should an adopted child not consider their adoptive family to be their ancestors when they pass on? It’s a ridiculous concept on its face. And this is the key to defining this set in a way that is more acceptable. It isn’t about genetic inheritance, though that certainly plays a role. It’s about relationship, some voluntary, some not. To put it into a shorter form, ancestors are those with whom we share kinship, either physical or otherwise, who are not currently incarnated. Now, why did I phrase it as “not currently incarnated” rather than “dead” or “no longer alive”? Simple, to account for reincarnation. If any part of a soul, presuming linear time (which is another conversation that goes beyond the scope of this definition by a long way), may reincarnate than the equation gets significantly more complex than simply being alive = relative, dead = ancestor. What this also does is shows that the distinction between dead humans and other spiritual beings is not nearly so solid as it seems. Another example of this in the extant literature is the very unclear distinctions between Alfar and ancestors, or even between Disir, deities, Valkyries, and Norns. So if we have a definition that allows for a blurring of the lines between human and nonhuman spiritual beings, and does not necessitate genetic inheritance to define an ancestor, we have a definition that is much more in line with what we see worldwide, and allows for overlap between these two sets.
You see, the world over we have peoples claiming descent from a wide variety of mythological or spiritual beings. In Mongolia many tribes claim descent from Wolf, Deer, even Bear. You find similar instances in Turtle Island, with many peoples claiming descent from mythological figures and or kinship with a variety of other animals. And in a similar vein it is extremely common for various European peoples to have mythologies that include interbreeding with a variety of Fair Folk, Trolls, and other spiritual beings, not to mention the frequent claims of various royal and noble lines of being descended from a variety of different divinities. Divinities which specifically include Jotnar in some cases, coincidentally.
Now. Did I play a bit fast and loose with the rules of formal logic in the above? Absolutely. Those with a mind to could easily tear the logic to pieces. I don’t have the inclination currently to formalize these definitions into logically ironclad things. It’s possible to do, but not something I’m interested in doing right now. Because more important is this: Ancestry is about kinship, not about genetics. It’s about those with whom you have a relationship. And it can, and has historically, included Jotnar in its definition. Both Skadi and Gerdr are claimed ancestors of known royal family lines in Nordic history. The definition of the set of ancestors, by a reasonable person from a polytheist or animist perspective who acknowledges Indigenous traditions (which is to say, is reasonable), necessarily leans in this direction logically. Of course that does not mean that people who don’t naturally come to this conclusion are being unreasonable. It takes training and work and sometimes people pointing things out to us to get our heads around things, and there are certainly other reasonable definitions than the one I’ve put forward here. I submit however that reasonable definitions will bear some similarity to the one I’ve put forward, and that any differences will, in majority, differ due to the rejection of polytheism, animism, or reincarnation.
Now, is that useful to you? Well, that’s not something I can determine. There’s certainly something to be said for the fact that the only Jotnar we have historic examples of as progenitors are paired with not just Aesir partners, but with divine kings specifically. And there’s more to be said for the fact that it’s explicitly royal lines we most commonly see claiming divine ancestry. These do not however, negate the kinship we find with spirits the world over. It’s also not necessary by any stretch to include Jotnar, or frankly any non-human spirits, in the list of ancestors or ancestral spirits that you have dealings with. In fact, unless there is some pressing reason, i.e. you’ve been approached by them, there’s risk of them becoming disquiet or otherwise dangerous, you belong to a culture with living ancestor traditions (in which case, why are you reading my blog instead of talking to your Elders??), etc… than there is no NEED to engage with ancestors or ancestral spirits at all. But that doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea to have at least a basic ancestor practice. Water or coffee or milk on an altar once a week is a pretty easy and good thing in my opinion.
Now. I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that anyone who proposes such a topic, or gets this far into a chaotic ramble like this, could use some jumping off points for dealing with Jotnar ancestors for one reason or another. So now I’m going to leave behind Set Theory and Formal Logic and just put on the spiritworker hat for a bit and give some of my experiences and unsolicited advice.
Now, I’m godspoused to Angrboda, a prominent queen among the Jotnar. Which grants me exactly zero authority or special expertise. In no fashion do I pretend to dictate to other people how the spirits are, what their relationships are, can, or should be, or indeed anything else. But I have a fair amount of experience with Jotnar specifically and I think that experience may be of use to other people looking to start their own explorations or practices. Everything from here on out should be considered to be a combination of my experience, UPG, opinion, and research. Take what makes sense to you, use what might be useful, discard what isn’t.
Jotnar tend to be pretty straightforward and no nonsense. Gruff, rough around the edges. While this isn’t always the case, I’ve found it to often be true. They are often more intelligent, more wise and cunning, than folks give them credit for and often use presumptions about them to their advantage. They are fearsome and clever and proud, making them powerful allies and unwanted enemies. People often associate them with land spirits of various kinds, and I don’t find this to be incorrect. Though in my experience they tend to be land-owning spirits rather than spirits of the land directly. Which isn’t to say that some Jotnar aren’t spirits of the land, or that the land-owners among them aren’t deeply tied to their lands in ways that are vital and visceral. Where they differ from other such spirits is that it tends to be LARGE things that they’re associated with. Mountains, large and notable hills, glaciers, old growth forests, that kind of thing. And they tend to be solid things, not bodies of water. There may be bodies of water in their lands, but it doesn’t tend to be bodies of water specifically that they’re associated with. A mountain with a lake and river, not the river and lake on a mountain. I will also say that my experience of them has been that they’ve tended to prefer the cold climates over the warmer ones. There are, I think, other giants (giant being a bit of a misnomer but se le vie) who prefer the warmer climes. There are of course plenty of Jotnar who are not associated with land, though I find the ones that are are more involved with humans.
I find that Jotnar are just as political as the Aesir and Vanir are, though I find that their politics tend to be more forward. They tend to respect strength, honesty, cleverness, and authority exercised well. Family and tribe tend to be very important to them, as does loyalty. Similarly they tend to expect honest respect for legitimate authority, which should not be confused for blind obedience. They can also be easily offended by perceived rudeness or slights. Jotnar tend to be very full of life. Fond of food and drink, of laughter and song, of storytelling and adventure. They could easily be described as boisterous, even wild.
When it comes to interaction, I recommend starting with the basics for offerings. Milk, food, water, tobacco, alcohol. Mugwort, cedar, and juniper also go over well in my experience. A bit stereotypical but I find that warm, hearty foods tend to go over well. Meat, especially red meat, bread, root vegetables. Similarly I find that they tend to like alcohol more than water.
I find that they like things to be straightforward. Straightforward, simple, and well done. If all you’ve got is a cheap white candle and a shot glass of water, that’s fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. But if you can manage an altar with nice wooden or stone bowl for offerings, an incense burner and a nice candle? I recommend it. The better the quality of whiskey you pour them, the more I find they appreciate it. Quality of course doesn’t always equate with price. There’s plenty of whiskey that drinks wildly above its price point. And a well prepared casserole will go over better than a filet mignon that’s under-seasoned and over-cooked.
For those that do journey work, I actually don’t tend to recommend going to Jotunheim. It is a wild and dangerous place, very much Outside the realm of man, and even friendly Jotnar aren’t necessarily safe. A greeting in Jotunheim might seem a bit more like a bar brawl than a handshake to us, and trespassing can be taken quite seriously. Outside of the normal dangers of journey work, Jotunheim is not a place I recommend most folks go, at least not without a strong relationship with a being who can guide and vouch for you.
Now specifically for Jotnar ancestors? Figuring out exactly what that means for you is likely to be important. Some questions that seem important to answer, aside from the basic discernment ones include the following:
Are they a patron of your family line, fulfilling a role similar to Disir? Or are they more interested in you specifically? Presumably since they’re approaching you as an ancestor, they’d like to be included in any regular ancestor practice that you’ve got. How will including them affect your Hamingja, your family luck? How will it affect your personal Megin (I’m using the Heathen words here, but use appropriate cognate concept words as needed)? How will your other ancestors interact with and react to them? What about your other spiritual relationships, how will they react? How significant a part of your practice and your life do they want to be? Does this relationship come with others attached? Clan or tribe or kingdom?
Overall, I recommend approaching the Jotnar with caution. But I recommend that with most spirits. I love the Jotnar. I’m biased, but I tend to get on with them better than I do with many other beings. You’ll be hard pressed to find a more fiercely loyal group, more willing to go to the wall to take care of their own. They make wonderful, powerful allies, friends, and family.
Hopefully this rant has been both coherent and helpful!